PN1

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Cooney, you appear for the ASU in Melbourne?

PN2

MR J COONEY: I do, Vice President.

PN3

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes. In Sydney, Ms Bhatt, you appear for the Ai Group?

PN4

MS R BHATT: I do, Vice President. Before proceeding I'm having some difficulty hearing you, your Honour.

PN5

THE VICE PRESIDENT: All right. I'll move the microphone a bit closer. Is that better?

PN6

MS BHATT: Yes, it's much better. Thank you.

PN7

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Thompson, you appear for ABI and the New South Wales Business Chamber in Melbourne? Sorry, in Newcastle. In Newcastle.

PN8

MS K THOMPSON: It's Ms Thompson, your Honour, in Newcastle.

PN9

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, Ms Thompson. Yes. Mr Klepper, you appear for Business SA in Adelaide?

PN10

MR C KLEPPER: Yes, I do, your Honour.

PN11

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Let's begin. Can I indicate I've got Mr Eamonn Moran QC on the Bench with me who has been advising and leading the plain English Language project and he will intervene where it's necessary to explain any aspect of the re-drafting process.

PN12

I intend to proceed by way of the revised summary of submissions dated 7 July 2017 which I think you all have a copy of, and we need to finish by about 4.45, so we'll have to do this as quickly as we can.

PN13

MR COONEY: Vice President, the parties have had a chance to speak amongst ourselves yesterday and we were wondering if we could suggest to the Commission that we set aside and meet amongst ourselves. We set aside the 30th � if it's acceptable to the Commission, 30 August, to narrow the issues.

PN14

THE VICE PRESIDENT: That's the purpose of today is to narrow the issues.

PN15

MR COONEY: Thank you.

PN16

THE VICE PRESIDENT: So the parties will have seen the 7 July document, and it's made in light of the revised exposure draft which was published on 7 July which is responsive to a number of the submissions made. What I would like to do is for the parties to identify � perhaps I'll start with the Ai Group since it has raised the majority of the issues. What issues remain outstanding in the light of the revised exposure draft? I'll start with you, Ms Bhatt.

PN17

MS BHATT: Yes.

PN18

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Are you in a position to do that?

PN19

MS BHATT: Vice President, I'm not sure that I am and that's why Mr Cooney has just put the proposal to you that he has. If I can just take a few steps back; we find ourselves in a somewhat difficult position today because, as you've observed, Ai Group filed very detailed submissions in relation to this exposure draft, but the ASU has not filed reply submissions in this matter. Without wanting to put words in Mr Cooney's mouth I understand, based on discussions that I've had with him just yesterday and late last week, that the ASU is not in a position to deal with the number of issues that we've raised during the conference today.

PN20

I mean, we can do our best to work through the issues but I'm concerned that that may not be the most productive use of time. I've worked through at least half of the summary of submissions to identify whether there might be anything that I can put to your Honour today as being agreed or appears to be resolved, but I can't because I don't know want the union's position in relation to any of these issues, and if the union ‑ ‑ ‑

PN21

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Ms Bhatt, I'm not asking whether it's agreed nor am I treating this as some sort of inter-parties contest. At the end of the day if there's issues that require determination they will be dealt with that way. What I want to know is whether ‑ ‑ ‑

PN22

MS BHATT: I'm sorry, Vice President, I can't hear you.

PN23

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes. What I want to know is whether the Ai Group issues have been resolved by reference to the revised exposure draft; not whether the ASU agrees with them; whether you agree with any of the changes that have been made.

PN24

MS BHATT: I must apologise, Vice President. There's a lot of disturbance, and I wasn't able to hear what you've just put to me.

PN25

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, all right. Ms Thompson and any other parties, can you stop moving papers because it interferes with the sound. Ms Bhatt, I'll start again. Can you hear me now?

PN26

MS BHATT: Faintly.

PN27

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Can you hear me any better now, Ms Bhatt?

PN28

MS BHATT: That's better. Thank you.

PN29

THE VICE PRESIDENT: All right. I'll start again. What I'm asking you to do is not to indicate whether issues are agreed between the parties because I'm not treating this as an inter-parties contest. What I want to know is by reference to the revised summary whether you can indicate that any issues raised by the Ai Group in its submissions have been resolved to the Ai Group's satisfaction in the revised exposure draft noting that the summary identifies who raised each issue, what the issue is, and what the response has been, if any. Are you in a position to do that?

PN30

MS BHATT: I'm not. Can I indicate this; I have at pace reviewed the revised exposure draft and the revised summary of submissions. The matters seem to fall into two categories. In some cases amendments have been made in the revised exposure draft which purport to address the issues that we've raised, but it seems to me that at first blush the amendments themselves might create some additional concern, but I don't think that I am in a position today to be able to put to you precisely what that it is because I haven't been able to seek instructions in relation to those issues. There's a second category and that is that it might be that some of those other matters are resolved by the amendments that have been made but again I haven't had an opportunity to seek instructions before the conference today.

PN31

THE VICE PRESIDENT: On my view of the document in a large number of cases the amendment proposed by the Ai Group has simply been put into effect. Have you examined even those?

PN32

MS BHATT: Vice President, one of the difficulties I've had is that the summary of submissions might suggest that the variation that we've proposed has been made but then when I've looked at the exposure draft in fact that's not the case. So the summary of submissions might indicate, for example, that clause X has been updated and when we look at the exposure draft the provision has indeed been updated but in terms that differ from what we have proposed.

PN33

Obviously we'd like to consider what's been put to us to see if that raises any other concern and whether it addresses the one we had previously raised. So to give you an example, for example, item 2 ‑ ‑ ‑

PN34

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Ms Bhatt, you don't need to prove to me that there are examples of what you say, but are there any examples in the other category, that is, where it's fully responsive to the change that's been proposed?

PN35

MS BHATT: I don't think I'm ‑ ‑ ‑

PN36

THE VICE PRESIDENT: For example, number 2 on the list, there was a complaint about, as I understood, the removal of the definition which was then put back in, of clerical work.

PN37

MS BHATT: That's precisely what I was going to take you to, because when I look at the definition of clerical work that's been inserted in clause 2 it is not in the same terms as the definition that we proposed or the one that appears in the current award. It now includes an additional reference to administrative work. I don't know if there's some other concern that arises for us as a result.

PN38

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Are there any issues that have been fully resolved by the amended exposure draft?

PN39

MS BHATT: Not that I can identify for you today.

PN40

THE VICE PRESIDENT: None at all?

PN41

MS BHATT: No.

PN42

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Is any other party in any different position from Ms Bhatt? Ms Thompson?

PN43

MS THOMPSON: No, your Honour.

PN44

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Klepper?

PN45

MR KLEPPER: No, your Honour.

PN46

THE VICE PRESIDENT: When will the parties be in the position to give me an informed response to the revised summary submissions and the revised exposure draft?

PN47

MS BHATT: Vice President, it's Ms Bhatt; if I can be heard in relation to that? As Mr Cooney has foreshadowed we had some discussions over the past few days as to how we might proceed given that there are a huge number of issues and we haven't had any reply submissions from the ASU. It has been agreed between the parties that, with the Commission's leave, the parties intend to meet on 30 August, and have set aside virtually the entire day to go through the summary of submissions, to see if there are matters that can be resolved. I hear what you have said, Vice President, and I understand of course that in this review even if an agreed position is reached it might be given some consideration and weight by the Commission, but that's not determinative of the matter, but at this stage I can't see another way forward. That would also give all of us some further time to consider the revised exposure draft and to determine the extent to which that colours our positon in relation to the various issues.

PN48

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Ms Bhatt, the parties are free to meet whenever they like to discuss the issues, but the purpose of the exercise is to redraft the award in plain language; not to reach an agreed position.

PN49

MS BHATT: Yes.

PN50

THE VICE PRESIDENT: So as long as it's understood that that's the objective then of course the parties can meet. But when will the parties be in a position to advise the Commission about their response to the revised exposure draft so that we can identify what issues, from our part, need reconsideration or redetermination and what issues can be regarded as no longer up for debate?

PN51

MS BHATT: My intention was to put to your Honour that the matter be called on not before 13 September, which is four weeks from now, and in that time the parties before you today intend to meet at least twice.

PN52

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Called on for what purpose?

PN53

MS BHATT: We're of course in the Commission's hands. Perhaps the matter can be listed for a further conference, and in light of the additional time that we will have and the discussion we will have I anticipate that at that conference we would be in the position to work through the summary of submissions.

PN54

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Are you guaranteeing me that at that later stage you'll be fully armed with instructions about all matters relating to the revised exposure draft?

PN55

MS BHATT: I hope to be.

PN56

THE VICE PRESIDENT: So what was that date again?

PN57

MS BHATT: 13 September.

PN58

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you. Are the other parties, would they likewise hope to be in a position to advise the Commission of any outstanding issue with respect to the revised exposure draft by 13 September?

PN59

MR COONEY: Yes. Yes, your Honour.

PN60

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Ms Thompson?

PN61

MS THOMPSON: Yes, your Honour.

PN62

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Klepper?

PN63

MR KLEPPER: Yes, your Honour.

PN64

THE VICE PRESIDENT: It doesn't seem to me that we can usefully proceed any further this afternoon. Can I suggest that it might've been of greater assistance if we were in this position that we were advised beforehand rather than having to start the conference. But anyway, look, what we'll do now is adjourn. I will try to identify a date on or after 13 September to have a further conference together with Mr Moran.

PN65

So we'll now adjourn. Can the parties stay in the vicinity of the court room? Hopefully you have your diaries with you, and we'll return hopefully in about 15 minutes.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT�� [2.14 PM]

RESUMED�� [2.24 PM]

PN66

THE VICE PRESIDENT: The Commission will reluctantly accede to the parties' request for an adjournment. So the matter will be listed for a full day conference starting at 10 am on Friday, 15 September. Mr Moran and myself will be located in Melbourne but there'll be video links as requested. Is there any reason why we shouldn't direct the parties by the close of business on 13 September to file a document which indicates from each party's perspective which issues raised by that party identified in the 7 July 2017 revised summary of submissions have been resolved by the revised exposure draft?

PN67

MR COONEY: No, Vice President. We're happy with that course.

PN68

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes. Ms Bhatt?

PN69

MS BHATT: We're happy with that course too. Thank you, Vice President.

PN70

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Klepper?

PN71

MR KLEPPER: We're happy with that course. Thank you, your Honour.

PN72

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Ms Thompson?

PN73

MS THOMPSON: Yes. Thank you, your Honour. That's fine.

PN74

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Are there any other issues that we can deal with today? No. Thank you. We'll now adjourn.

ADJOURNED UNTIL FRIDAY, 15 SEPTEMBER 2017 �� [2.25 PM]